In this conversation, Nick and Jert discuss their experiences at QuestCon, the operations of Space Penguin Inc., and insights into crowdfunding for indie RPGs. They explore the challenges of vending at conventions, the intricacies of print runs and distribution, and the importance of marketing strategies for upcoming projects. Jert shares his experiences with Kickstarter and the significance of building a community around their products, while Nick reflects on his own journey in the tabletop gaming industry.
- www.spacepenguin.ink
- https://www.instagram.com/spacepenguinink/
- Music by Old Romans: https://www.instagram.com/old_romans
You can listen to the episode here (or wherever you listen to podcasts) or read the transcript below:
Nick (00:01.92)
Today on the podcast, have Jarrett or Jert, depending on if you need to save time, with Space Penguin Inc. Jarrett, I met you at QuestCon in Orlando a couple weeks ago. That was my first time there. How did you feel about that event?
Jert! (00:20.412)
Yeah, no, it was good. That was our second year We did last year when the whole floor plan was all kind of moved around and in a different direction and set up and This this year. We definitely had a lot more past you and a lot more people on the floor It felt like from our side. What about you guys? What did you I know you don't have a year to compare against
Nick (00:42.728)
Yeah, well, so, what I guess the, closest thing to compare it to, which is probably unfair is Origins. Cause I've, I've vended at a Pagan festival, I've vended at Comic -Con, I've vended at like a metaphysical festival. but the only gaming specific ones I've done were Origins and Quest -Con and
Jert! (01:04.555)
Mm -hmm.
Nick (01:11.606)
Origins, I made I think like $2 ,200 for the Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. This event, I made $450 for the Friday, Saturday, Sunday. So it didn't cover the vending fee and hotel, which sucks. But I mean, you never really know unless you try and you know.
Jert! (01:28.148)
Right, yeah.
Jert! (01:32.704)
Yeah, for us it covered vending fee and I want to say a couple of nights.
to
Nick (01:48.46)
Hahaha
Jert! (02:10.898)
to do like payouts for people for royalties and stuff like that. So it's still new enough that we're not putting all of our travel and all of our stays on the business card. We're getting closer. We're definitely getting closer to where we feel more comfortable doing that. But.
We're we're we're not quite there. So yeah, I think we we came out reasonably well For us it was kind of a bonus because we got to see Laura Jane Grace and the Mississippi Medicals That band I was telling you about I'm wearing an against me shirt if this is her old band against me Which someday will resurrect itself and be a full band again. I think maybe we'll see But we got to see them sat Sunday night after the show. So it was kind of That extra night was just kind of completely written off as just
Nick (02:46.9)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Jert! (03:06.176)
anyway so
Nick (03:07.574)
Cool. Well, I know I didn't do a good intro, but tell me about your company, Space Penguin, and how do you go about describing what it is you do?
Jert! (03:11.808)
No, you're good. Sure, so...
Jert! (03:17.746)
Sure, So at Space Penguin Inc., we just, you know, are...
our tagline and it's not superbly original because a lot of people use it, but it's weird books by and for weird people. I have been lucky enough to work with some of the most wild and out there brains in indie RPGs as far as like crafting and pushing and creating it towards an art form over the past 12 years. yeah, about two years ago was around the time when I was getting ready to leave my previous employer.
And for good and break out on our own and do our own thing. So now it's myself and my partner Debbie who we met and I am I'm editor -in -chief. So I edit every single thing that comes across our desk That we put out into the world and Also, I deal with all the creatives and I mean she's friends with a lot of them too but I deal with all the folks who create stuff and
handle all of the business side and the finances and Debbie handles all of the logistics and fulfillment on the back end. So aka she's got a big room in the other room that is full of boxes and boxes and boxes and more boxes. We got a pallet of 50 boxes that came. It was about two pallets were technically that arrived on Saturday out of nowhere from one of our crowdfunded books that we didn't even get notification that they were arriving from FedEx.
just they landed, they hit port and then from port they just magically appeared and I was just like, all right, fine with me, man. So yeah, I got another box fort, which is cool. We're actually getting ready to move to a storage space to move a lot of our stuff there, our overstock and stuff like that, because we're handling fulfillment for some fellow travelers, some folks who've done some things for mothership primarily, and then we do fulfillment.
Jert! (05:23.142)
for folks in the UK and EU and Canada so who can print here or who print wherever they print and ship here but it helps them keep the cost down when they handle their crowdfund rewards and stuff like that so it's a little cheaper than you know someone backing something from a creator in the UK and then having to pay UK shipping prices over the creator roles part of that
you know that freight into getting the stuff over to us into their backers kit charges it kind of subsidizes it a little bit and spreads it out and then they pay us for media mail most of the time our good friend media mail do you question for you do you get to send your card decks media mail
Nick (06:10.55)
So I do have ISBNs on all of my things. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. This... Well, okay. Most of my card decks are fulfilled by the fulfillment lab, my fulfillment partner in Tampa. And as I told you before, they do everything DHL, so no media mail option there.
If I'm shipping something from my house, I will do what I can to make it media mail. Like if they buy a role -playing game book or something, those I don't have at the warehouse, but that I'll just put in a bubble mailer and media mail it. But if they're including like a bunch of cards and some prints and pins and stuff like that, then I'm not going to media mail it.
Jert! (06:34.143)
Gotcha.
Jert! (06:45.782)
Mm
Jert! (06:52.992)
Yeah, yeah, I didn't know if cards themselves would qualify. We have yet to do cards. We're doing a card deck coming up. We're crowdfunding it in November, so we're gonna see how that goes for Mothership, which would be nice.
Nick (07:03.99)
I so so tomorrow I've got my shipment arriving for my latest tarot deck and my latest like just regular playing cards and If I was just shipping out one or two packages of the playing cards I would try media mail but because I'm gonna be dropping off like 50 packages of those playing cards if that's kind of shady to be like hey these 50 things are all media mail and plus it's the size of a card deck like a standard playing card deck so that'd be pretty small the tarot deck
Jert! (07:23.398)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Jert! (07:28.906)
Yeah.
Jert! (07:32.832)
Yep.
Nick (07:34.134)
is its oracle size so it still might seem like a weird size for a book but those are gonna go in boxes anyways if it was i feel like if it's a bubble mailer and it's book shaped i mean i don't know how likely they are to open it and look at it but i mean technically it's supposed to be a book or a cd or a dvd or something like that i don't think cards really count but there is a book in the card deck
Jert! (07:47.328)
Mm -hmm.
Jert! (07:57.278)
Yeah, printed educational material.
So here's what I'm going to suggest to you to make it even funnier is you now start making your boxes that your tarot decks come in shaped like books, but then they have the whole Shawshank, you know, they're all cut out. So just, just an insert for all of them. And then you just, just shrink wrap all that. And then they're to be like, it's a book. It's a book. It's a book. I mean, now, now, now I kind of want to do that.
Nick (08:05.002)
Mm
Nick (08:15.722)
Yeah. That's fun.
Nick (08:24.788)
I know a lot of people have also, I've seen on Etsy a lot of people have been shipping things in old DVD cases.
Jert! (08:33.638)
Interesting.
Nick (08:35.125)
Yeah, yeah, I mean if it's small things like pins or a bookmark or something like that or small painting
Jert! (08:39.238)
Sure, yeah. Wow, I didn't know that there was a creative, like there was a, our stance on it is if it's the same thing, if it's a book or a brochure or anything like that that counts as media mail, then it goes media mail. If it doesn't, then it goes USPS Ground Advantage or FedEx or UPS or whichever one of our shipping, the same basic shipping solutions that everyone has access to.
Nick (08:56.148)
Mm
Jert! (09:04.586)
We tend to not violate government laws, governmental laws about stuff like that. So just, we don't want, you don't want to be flagged. That's the problem, you know, because our folks here at our local shop, like Kevin and Lisa, like the, know, I know my male contractors by name, you know, I mean, I know my guy who comes to my house, Daniel, like we drop off so much stuff a week, you know, we're at probably,
Nick (09:11.241)
Sure
Nick (09:16.458)
Yeah.
Jert! (09:34.462)
We're probably averaging probably about 55 to 60 packages a week between fulfillment and our orders and our fulfillment for our kickstarters and stuff like that. So I'm over there at the post office three or four days a week and they want to just pack these up. They want to just scan them and send them through and scan them and send them through. And as long as you're using those pre -printed labels that either says media mail or ground advantage or priority or whatever, most of the time
Nick (09:41.355)
Wow.
Jert! (10:04.558)
they're not gonna do it, but what you're gonna find is you're gonna find that one guy who really, that one end carrier who, because it is, it is their right to do that, they'll open it. And then if it's not meanie mail, then they're supposed to, by law, they're supposed to send it back to the receiver and tell them that it wasn't meanie mail or deliver it and market postage due, you know, which, let's just not go there. I like the USPS.
Nick (10:31.062)
So yeah, yeah, and I've noticed too sometimes like, well, with the discounts on shipping I get from Shopify, media mail is a lot of times maybe like 30 cents cheaper than doing the ground advantage. And it's going to take two to three days longer to get there. So it's just not worth the risk in that.
Jert! (10:42.484)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yep.
Jert! (10:50.453)
Yeah.
Yeah, that's I'm getting I'm getting more and more used to using ground advantage as we're going along Just because we've got folks like a lot of them the within within the mothership subculture There's an affectation for patches like embroidered patches whether iron -on or so on and It seems like almost everyone who does a crowdfund of some sort does a does a patch I have been explicitly like no, I just want to do books for a year
Nick (11:06.774)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Jert! (11:21.118)
and half now but we've got a mothership project coming up and it would feel like a disservice if we didn't do the patch with it so and that right away just that makes it go ground advantage so
Nick (11:33.3)
Yeah, so even if it was book and a patch, you don't think it's worth the risk.
Jert! (11:38.004)
No, it's yeah, I just I just send it I've had people I I know some other fulfillment companies who people have told me that they just send it all out media mail and I'm like, I'm like that's cool. That's what they did. But if you want to hang out with us, we have to send it ground advantage just because you know, I don't want to I don't want to run into I just don't want my packages to be sent back. That's the that's the worst thing in the world. The worst thing in the world is packaging stuff up to send out, which is why I don't do it.
Nick (12:07.365)
It is.
Jert! (12:07.88)
because Debbie does it, she won't let me do it like she laughs at me because I make mistakes and she's worked in retail for most of her life so she knows how to package things.
Nick (12:18.814)
Now what if you shrink -wrapped the book and the patch together? So it's like, this is a book that just happens to come with the patch. I think that would probably feel more media -mail -y.
Jert! (12:29.544)
Yeah, and I feel like if you did that or if you if it was a thin enough patch that you can slide it inside the front covers if it was a hard say for example a hardcover book or something like that you could do it Yeah, or you just use a more rigid mailer, so it's less likely To get bumped around you know and make it make it a little bit of extra noise I imagine cards make lots of noise if they're if they're in a tuck box or in a or in a like a nested box or anything
Nick (12:53.172)
Yeah.
Nick (12:57.846)
Yeah. So that kind of does bring up a question I wanted to ask before. So your business is like 99 % books then. Okay. And about how many projects would you say you crowdfund per year versus just outright publish? How do you like decide which ones are going to go which route?
Jert! (13:01.91)
Yeah.
Yes, right now. Yep.
Jert! (13:17.908)
Sure, so we have thus far on the Space Penguin
Tag on the space penguin name the account officially we've done one Kickstarter for the Karen box set which hit 225 K That one's at the printer right now that one's gonna get back fairly soon And we're excited to get that into people's hands early next year once that lands here we were really hoping for December, but It just we've figured out that shipping Possibly receiving and shipping things and December might not be the best idea
I don't know something about a holiday or something. I don't anyway We we have we gave ourselves till next March to do it So we've got plenty of time, but we were just joking around about you know like being like Christmas elves like because we just crowdfunded that this year we have a very Timely like we everything that we do for crowd funds is 98 % done before we launch the crowdfund so I'm talking like we're doing fine
and
Nick (14:32.853)
Mm
Nick (14:45.302)
Well, I mean, so I do want to ask you about that too, because the most I've ever raised on a Kickstarter project was 18 ,000. And for me, that was incredible. That was my morph board thing. And we, my wife and I, who working on my next tarot deck together, no, sorry, no, no, the board game that we were at QuestCon promoting that we designed together. Yeah, Propagation Station. We are meeting with Launch Boom tomorrow.
Jert! (14:48.748)
Mm
Jert! (14:56.875)
Yeah.
Jert! (15:06.707)
Mm Propagation station? Yes.
Jert! (15:13.558)
Cool.
Nick (15:14.686)
no, Friday to like sketch out a plan to have them do all the pre press and stuff. And and I I've only once worked with a marketing partner and that was the marketing team at BackerKit. And while they were great to work with, we didn't hit our funding goal on BackerKit. So I don't really have the best. Expectations, but.
Jert! (15:20.714)
Nice.
Nick (15:43.166)
I feel like Propagation Station has a much higher ceiling than any other project I've done in the past. So I do kind of want to hand it off to someone else. So you mentioned you hit 225k on a Kickstarter project recently. Was that with outside marketing help or was that just your internal?
Jert! (15:48.052)
Yeah. Yeah.
Jert! (15:55.552)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
We'd we used we used to be K marketing we we that one was on crowd Kickstarter and we used back or kept marketing and Don't I don't have the numbers right in front of me, but well about what we spent but Hey bits and mortar is tentatively back bits and mortar has been down for a minute. We'll talk about that later but Anyway
Nick (16:04.096)
Hmm
Jert! (16:26.932)
I don't know exactly off the top of my head how much we spent on marketing for that without digging up the spreadsheets, but I can tell you that it was...
It was advantageous in my experience with using BackerKit marketing on many other projects at my previous employer, Exalted Funeral, and using it a lot there. BackerKit marketing tends to work really well when your project already is going to fund and have a really, like you said, a high ceiling and there's a lot of growth because you're paying versus a ROAS, a return on ad spend for that. And if you have a lot of day one backers, first up, you're pretty solid. Did that pick up the doorbell ringing?
Nick (17:11.892)
Yeah, a little bit. That's fine.
Jert! (17:13.415)
Sorry about that I'm gonna ignore it. It's probably just something being delivered towards my neighbor who I can get ahold of later I love podcasts because all this stuff stays and stays in podcast land forever and people are like what's wrong with you Jared? I was just like I live in Florida. That's what happens But
Nick (17:25.087)
Hahaha
Jert! (17:35.808)
We was, it was advantageous for season that we also ran a crowdfunding on backer kit. So we use their actual crowdfunding platform on BK itself for the parthenogenesis of hungry hollow. And we engaged with BK marketing again. And after one day they, and we both agreed, we were just like, this isn't gonna, this isn't worth it. You know, like it's liminal horror is a smaller line and parthenogenesis. We didn't have as many day one sellers.
or I'm sorry, signups, you know, and stuff like that. So that's your big trick with all of those. And that's why you're going down a good path by working with LaunchBoom is because they are going to get you those day one backers. They're going to get you all those signups because you really need 500 to a thousand signups. I think for Karen, we had close to 2000.
I want to say we had close to 2 ,000, maybe more than that. it's one of those, it's a snowball effect. Once they start rolling, they really roll. And that's when marketing can get out there and do that and all that, and do their magic and point their ads where they go. Whereas when you work with a place like LaunchBoom, at least in my understanding, the main service that they offer is actually doing...
I'm giving those those pre signups and stuff like that. I'm sure they offer a package where they handle everything, right?
Nick (19:06.214)
I don't know, we'll find out on Friday. We just did the first meeting so far to make sure that it would make sense for them to work with us. So the next meeting is where we talk to who would potentially be our marketing consultant. And so like I'm open to doing all the graphics myself, but if I'm paying them five to ten thousand dollars, I want them to do it. So we'll see how that goes. But their biggest thing is they have an interface that's like a prelaunch page.
Jert! (19:16.694)
Cool, very cool.
Nick (19:36.118)
but people not only sign up for that, they will also reserve their spot for $1 so that you have like some type of bonus you give those people who reserved that spot, but it also ensures that it is a much stronger launch than if it was just people who hit notify me on launch. Yeah.
Jert! (19:45.132)
Mmm.
Jert! (19:55.872)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, it's very, it's, are going to engage with them. I'm hoping to meet Jesse at PAXU this year. We didn't get to connect at PAX last year. And unfortunately, the projects that we've had that have been going up have been short turnaround times. know, LB really likes, like you to have a window of three to six months there so they can really like lay the groundwork and do that stuff. And I completely understand that. does get building that up.
take time.
Nick (20:29.686)
Well, I reached out to them because Zach Goins had recommended them and he said that they're using them for their latest project and the Kickstarter that they ran launched yesterday on Limithron and it hit 250 ,000 in the first day, so. But I mean, I know Limithron has done a lot of hard work too in showing it up every event and being memorable at each event.
Jert! (20:40.524)
Yeah, and it's blow it up. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I right. I was gonna say, yeah. 90 % of that comes down to Luke's total graphic design sense, you know? So it's really good, but yeah.
Nick (21:03.67)
Yeah. So, yeah, I hope LaunchBoom works out for me. I'm excited and nervous about throwing that much money in, but it's good to know that if you had hit that 250 ,000, whatever it is you said, without any outside marketing help, then I would feel like a total piece of shit. So it helps me to know that that happened with you.
Jert! (21:08.395)
Yeah.
Jert! (21:23.084)
Sure, sure, Yeah, no.
Yeah, no, a lot of that was also partnering with the Riot Project. Like Karen has been around for a couple of years and Yo -Hai has put it out for free and done at cost print runs of the players guide and the rulebook and stuff for a couple of years. people, was a good groundswell, a good base community around that to begin with. So we had that. We had a lot of good day one sign ups. A lot of those came from the
care and ecosystem from being fans of that, being on the Discord server and on the mailing list there. Now those people are on our mailing list, which is nice because, and eventually those people will buy stuff from our Shopify store, so it'll be on our Shopify email list. I love all these email lists we have and people are like, you're gonna overlap them and just build them up at same time, but then what happens is you're the company that when you put out a news release, today I put up a
teaser a launch a backer kit launch not launch boom but backer kit launch email asking the 5 ,000 people who backed Karen to back the new OSE adventure we have I'm not I'm purposefully not looking at that number and seeing how many people are actually signing up for it until like later on in the week just to see how much work legwork I need to do if I can get three to five hundred signups on that but you know
Nick (22:44.224)
You
Jert! (22:55.71)
If I can get a tenth of the people that backed Karen to want to back this module for OSE, there are two rules light systems, OSE being a little bit crunchier as it's based on BX or used to be, it's still, it deals in the fantasy realm, it's indie RPGs, know. If we can get a tenth of that, then we can hit somewhere around the $18 ,000 mark.
because that's what we need, A, between 18 and 37 ,000 because that allows us to have a humble amount. Karen was, Karen is kind of the outlier. Yes, it was the first one we did on her name and it was kind of, it's the biggest one we've done. But that doesn't mean that I wanna do one of those every year or every couple of years. Like I can tell you right now, I don't wanna do one of those every year. There's so much work that goes into doing a,
225 K Versus doing four or five smaller ones throughout the year that you can turn around a lot faster And you're still going to end up bringing in large, you know reasonable money on these smaller ones so to roll all the way back That's that's my ADHD. We're just kind of running at you right there you asked right, right you asked how
Nick (24:01.674)
Mm -hmm.
Nick (24:10.208)
Well that makes you a good podcast guest.
Jert! (24:16.516)
How are how many you know crowd funds we've done we've done Karen and we've done the part that adjusts with hungry hollow and then we've also done endless horrors from between the stars and the forbidden Psalm End Times edition now those come from a different ecosystem from there on the same account there on the co -creator on the creators my partner in all this will for the FP line
They go there on his account because he's been doing those for five years So he's been slowly building up that audience and the people tend to like the stuff that he puts out You know, we haven't really had one that's not worked. We did one that we didn't Send to crowdfund that we should have sent to crowdfund which was dread nights That was one of the first things we printed So this kind of answers part of your question about how much do we crowdfund and how much do we direct print? We took part of our initial funds and we invested about
to 30 ,000 I think is a closer to 30 ,000 in printing and 20k of that was for 2 ,000 hardcovers and 2 ,000 soft covers of Dread Nights wonderful fantastic book it's Forbidden Song which is skirmished miniatures in a Victorian setting in England because or Wales or wherever right will is Welsh and Monsters vampires werewolves things like that right? without that
crowdfund without doing a crowdfund for that we are still trying to make up that initial investment of like 20 25k on that just because Once it does actually make its initial investment here in another quarter or so Which is fine for the size of the print run everything after that is gravy and let me tell you I have a lot of companies of forbidden solemn dread nights like I can cut that down to 50 % off cover and still make a lot of money on that so that's you know part of that or
larger runs.
Nick (26:12.95)
Well, I think that's a segue into a question I wanted to ask you about. like with my Kickstarter project that I said I did the best on, the Pilgrimage of the Penitent, I ordered 750 books because I'm like this Kickstarter is doing so well, I'm going to be able to keep selling these on my website and it hardly sells at all on my website. So I have a lot of leftover stock.
Jert! (26:23.456)
Mm -hmm.
Jert! (26:27.19)
Awesome.
Nick (26:38.39)
which is great because I can send it to Exalted Funeral and it sells super fast at Exalted Funeral. I can give it to Brian with Vast Grimm and he sells it really well at conventions. But I think it's because my website and my email list is tarot collectors. And I think I had that kind of false information because if you play Morkborg as a role -playing gamer, you're already familiar with Kickstarter.
Jert! (26:43.606)
Yeah.
Jert! (26:57.793)
Yep.
Nick (27:07.912)
So like that Venn diagram is almost a complete circle. So there's very few people who were not already aware of the project when it was on Kickstarter. So I just got to get better at realizing when I need to put those additional funds into ordering more stock. In the case of a tarot deck, I think obviously it's working well for me. Those sell year round on my site. But like role playing games, because it's so niche and because the people who follow them
Jert! (27:08.107)
Mm -hmm.
Jert! (27:17.963)
Right.
Nick (27:37.75)
are... I guess there's always people who come into things late, but not as many as people... I'm sorry, I guess what is your opinion on that situation? How do you... what goes into your decision on how many extras to print?
Jert! (27:48.168)
Sure. do you figure out print runs? So the biggest thing for us, we look at the lowest print
price of return that we're going to get. And the lowest price of return that we're going to get are with our distribution partners with ACD, GTS, Sometime in the Future, Spiral Galaxy, B &W, and some other places. And when you sell into distribution, which gets them into brick and mortar stores without you having to pester every brick and mortar store known to man and every brick and mortar store owner forgetting you because you're not in this catalog from these distributors every month, which makes life a lot easier for all of them.
Is 40 % so that's that's what we make back of SRP. So say I got a book that is $10 we put out monthly forbidden Psalms Which are you know more scenarios and monsters and weapons and stuff like that for FP All themed around a particular month or time of year or whatever 10 those those retail for $10 so we print them in quantities of 300 because
if we print color cover black and white interior for a 16 page zine with uncoated paper, which gives it kind of like a little more of a a lifeless feel, which fits with the overall aspect of the line. It's more it's more comedy. If you've played Borg Borg, you get the kind of built in comedy aspect that is kind of there from Forbidden Song. A lot of people like it's so death metal. And it's like, no, it's not so death metal. It's so goofy. It's so like, yeah.
Nick (29:20.978)
Mm
Nick (29:27.468)
It's pretty silly.
Jert! (29:31.784)
Yeah. But.
doing those at that. we try to print them in sufficient quantity where we are making the most money that we possibly can off of distribution. knowing that distribution probably between our two distributors are probably going to pick up 50 to 100 copies. So 50 times four bucks that we get back, that's 200, right? So yeah, so right there.
Nick (30:04.53)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Jert! (30:06.414)
My budget is about $200. Now I need to see how many copies I can get for $200, if that makes sense. It's easy to do with a place like Mixam when you're printing zines because you can kind of see your scale and as long as you're constantly updating your, your shipping, you know, you're refreshing when you update your quantities and stuff like that, it'll tell you.
Nick (30:13.824)
Yeah.
Jert! (30:30.736)
you know how much the shipping is going to be and stuff like that. And so that's where that's how we decide what to do in larger or smaller quantities. It also depends on what line it's for. If for stuff that is we've got one that is for DCC but also for 5e and we put a 5e logo on it and we put the DCC logo on it. Haven't really seen how that one's at distribution yet. We're waiting for this next month's orders to come in.
But something like that we printed minimal quantities because it's an unknown quantity now if all of a sudden
They've sold out completely and they want to order 200 more. Well, guess what? I'm probably gonna run out of those So I'm gonna have to print a larger run on my second run If it's for something for Forbidden Psalm or Morg Borg or Mothership I can tend to go for larger quantities and stuff like that because there's a larger fan base of people That dig that stuff already and you know that you're gonna sell some copies to those folks So there's yeah, there's two parts to the equation you see how much
you know, what's the cheapest you can get it for that your pocketbook can actually handle, you know, to make money at the cheapest point because we will then also sell to...
Nick (31:48.553)
Mm
Jert! (31:53.324)
non brick and mortar or non distribution, you know, when we sell to our friends at Spearwich and Exalted Funeral, we sell at a 50 % discount because they're not like that, which is normal wholesale. Because unlike when you sell to a distributor, the distributor doesn't have to make up their end of the money, you know, on getting that because brick and mortar stores buy from ACD at a 50 % discount. So that 10 % discount is what is the extra bit that
distributors take that so distributors worldwide they get 10 % of everything it's not a secret
Nick (32:31.528)
and by the way, thanks for that Spear Witch connection. I've got a wholesale order going out to them this weekend.
Jert! (32:35.212)
Cool, awesome. Yeah, no, Jared fucking rules. Jared's one of my oldest gamer buds.
Nick (32:39.07)
Yeah. awesome. So for the, the shipments that come out of your, your business and go out to customers each week, what percentage would you guess are Kickstarter fulfillment or crowdfunding fulfillment and what percentage are people who are just ordering from your website?
Jert! (32:47.797)
Mm
Jert! (32:57.704)
So during Kickstarter, yeah, I mean, just overall, I can tell you that the Kickstarter fulfillments, you sell a lot more copies like straight up right there. The goal eventually is to get the distribution copies up to a higher number. We really want the numbers going out to distribution to be about 30 % of what we're sending out every month, maybe 30 to 40%. And then,
Nick (33:07.625)
Mm
Jert! (33:28.671)
out of the 30, then that would leave us 50 for fulfillments, whether they're for ours or for other people, and then 20 % coming from our retail store. Those are just numbers that I just made up in my head right now for those listening at home. But that's pretty close to about what it feels like. So. Mm -hmm.
Nick (33:36.81)
Mm
Nick (33:40.744)
No, that's fine because I mean you you bring it up
Nick (33:48.896)
So you bringing up that distribution section is something that doesn't even exist in my pie chart. So.
Jert! (33:56.406)
for tarot decks and stuff like that.
Nick (33:59.582)
Well, it doesn't exist in my business model because I didn't know that was something I should pursue. But yeah, like I think in the case of tarot, there's one big tarot publisher out there, Llewelyn, and most metaphysical shops just do whatever Llewelyn gives them because I've gone into a lot of local metaphysical shops. like, hi, I live nearby. I make tarot decks. I'd love to get them in your store. And they all say no, thank you.
Jert! (34:03.87)
I gotcha. Gotcha.
Jert! (34:13.962)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Nick (34:24.914)
So I think it's just kind of maybe laziness on the part of store owners or just, you know, not wanting to deal with a consignment or wholesale model when they have a publisher that's just filling out that whole section of their store. But in the case of Pilgrimage of the Penitent, I don't know if I would love to get that into retail distribution, but I don't know if if companies would deal with a company, if a retail distribution company would deal with a company that has only one product, they probably want.
Jert! (34:38.72)
Yep.
Jert! (34:53.196)
sure so there are actually not a whole that's a that's that's a perfect point that is actually the actual truth of it generally speaking most distributors
it's not worth their time to write your SKU if you don't have 10 SKUs because the time it takes them to write that one SKU, they can write 10 SKUs because then they have to write purchase orders and with all their money is all up in the chain. And that's how it's been explained to me from the distributors themselves, from my good friend, Joseph Goodman over at Goodman Games, guy that publishes DCC. And he's just like, just, that's why when we went with, when we got with ACP,
Nick (35:22.304)
sure.
Jert! (35:40.106)
that was ACD taking a chance on us because we had 12 SKUs right out of the basket and we were just like, here they are, take them and then we have to keep pace. We have to put out a monthly zine. have to put out, which we put out two to four zines a month usually, new releases and stuff like that, which then are allowed through our whole distribution and retail chain.
god, I just said that we have a distribution retail chain. I'm a commercial.
Nick (36:10.262)
So your monthly releases, do you have those as a subscription or do people just log in every month and buy the latest?
Jert! (36:18.976)
We have not done them as a subscription this year because the infrastructure to make that work out.
is not something that I've had the time, time enough to do research in. I am proving to myself that I can maintain, and I mean, I know I can maintain doing it. The real trick is the cash flow. You have to make sure that you have cash flow if you're going to be printing on a monthly basis because the cost of paper goes up and down. We did quotes for Endless Horror from Between the Stars, which is for Forbidden Psalm, that we, I did quotes on my end for, over here.
to Mixam US and Will was doing his quotes with Mixam UK. His quotes went down so his were actually cheaper on all the things he was printing there and everything on my side went up by 33%. So the cost of paper just shit the bed really fast and guess what? I forget and you forget too because it's 95 degrees outside with 100 % humidity right now.
Nick (37:12.298)
Wow, okay.
Jert! (37:25.508)
It's September the rest of the world is printing all their holiday. They're printing all their Thanksgiving flyers and and Christmas cards and Books and all that stuff for Thanksgiving Christmas New Year's right now So all these printing presses are just running out of paper so fast and they can't get paper themselves fast enough So the best way they can do that is to slow the whole thing down by raising prices. It's exactly what I would do
Nick (37:52.778)
Hmm, interesting. That's a point. So, I'm picturing a situation where maybe you do a subscription as a Kickstarter and then all that money you raise you put in a high interest savings account, high yield savings account. And then, so at least it's earning interest throughout the year as you slowly pull money out of it. I don't know. That could be fun.
Jert! (37:54.1)
So, yeah.
Jert! (38:12.296)
Mm -hmm Interesting. Yeah Yeah Actually, one of our banks is really good has a really
See here I'll advertise for small business owners if you need an extra bank Axos axos, they're kind of hard to deal with on some things. Although they have a new business banking interface. That's a breeze for international transfers, which is really really really nice But they have the best I don't know what we get but they were the I did research for yeah, because we got we when we started we had a large chunk that we threw into the business and we were just like
Nick (38:40.261)
nice.
Jert! (38:53.804)
Here we go. Let's do this. Let's go. Let's see what happens. So.
Nick (38:57.206)
I just use a small local credit union, I have an online, I use Wealthfront, an online bank that's got a 5 % savings account. So whenever I run Kickstarter projects, as soon as I get that money, I put it over there because I don't want to know that money exists until I have to spend it for the project. Because if you put that in your personal bank account, then you'll be like, look at all the money I got in my bank. I'm going to start buying equipment and you can easily fuck up.
Jert! (39:07.999)
Nice.
Jert! (39:11.804)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Nick (39:26.07)
and end up in the red. So I keep that money in the high interest banking account so that it earns interests and then when I have to spend it is when I actually take the money out. Otherwise I pretend it just doesn't exist in there. So I want to talk about if someone comes to you with an idea for a project, how do you decide it's going to be worth crowdfunding versus I'm just going to go ahead and get that published?
Jert! (39:26.58)
Yep. Yep.
Jert! (39:35.69)
Nice. Nice. Yeah.
Jert! (39:52.828)
so, for zines and things of that nature, small soft covers, for the most part, they can be perfect bound or otherwise, you know, like, odor binding or what.
We choose to put those straight to we put the zines straight to straight to print Because we have enough cash flow that we can do that We need to maintain putting out to you know minimally one or two new releases because we're still trying to build up
product notoriety when it comes to Meeple Monthly and GTS's house magazines for you know newsletters for their retail partners and stuff like that. You're still trying to get yourself so the ACD has a magazine called Meeple Monthly which works like Diamond Previews does for comic books right. Diamond being one of the larger distributors in the world as well. They'll slot you can find DCC in the back of some previous now.
Nick (40:48.0)
comic books.
Nick (40:59.019)
Hmm.
Jert! (40:59.022)
It's kind of cool, so they're getting a game section Joe's making this shit happen. It's pretty exciting But We're still trying to get notoriety like one of the things big step for us next year is we're gonna take out an Advertising in meeple monthly. my god. I don't you know it's gonna cost us thousand bucks or so, but
Nick (41:05.526)
Nice.
Jert! (41:22.06)
if we do it right for this Karen box set that we are now ordering a lot of, like there's gonna be like 15 pallets of this stuff coming. Like I'm so stoked. There's gonna be so many.
but we're gonna take out an advertisement when it's time for that to hit at ACD so that people are just getting, being like, what's this? okay, these kids are legit. They had the chance to take, or the money to take out an actual advertisement. Here we go. Like, we actually wanna stock this product. We wanna actually look at this. So right now, we're in the new releases section each month and where it just has the company name, the picture of the item,
the item skew in a quick one paragraph blurb about it, know, amidst competing with Hasbro, competing with Goodman Games, competing with Exalted Funeral, competing with...
Japaname games competing with all kinds of people like just tons and tons and tons of game companies are putting out tons and tons and tons of stuff every week, you know, and you gotta imagine being a retailer and being the person that's like trying to curate and stock your flow at your shop with all the little things that you need, you know, plus not missing out on those perennial cash cows like Magic the Gathering and things like that and War Hammy, you know, and and the Hasbro type stuff. So
Yeah.
Nick (42:53.035)
I also want to shout out your website, which I love your consistent product photos.
Jert! (42:56.704)
Thanks.
Thank you. I take those. I've got my light boxes right over here. You can't see it. It's off to the right. But yeah, my light box and tripods stay here in my office and.
Every month when we get a new release and it comes in, take a, I do it, take a picture. I clean the scrubbed exit off of it, send it to Dai who does our image marketing and stuff like that. He handles, you know, giving me a couple of options with different background colors and stuff like that. I usually shoot it on white and he changes it to match the other colors that we've shot before and stuff like that. I think.
Nick (43:31.312)
nice.
Jert! (43:36.99)
One of these days I should go through there and just make all of the Forbidden Somb like this rust orange color and all of the mothership one something else but I don't want it I want it to kind of like they're kind of subdued because like we've got like big purples and pinks all throughout the rest of the site you know.
Nick (43:52.958)
Yeah, and so I like that you just do a shot of the cover and then the other images are from the actual PDF Yeah, cuz it is a bitch to try and take a photo of the inside of a book. So I appreciate that you didn't even try Yeah, and then I you see Sorry, I see you've got a lot of shirts too. Do those do well for you?
Jert! (44:00.789)
Yeah.
Jert! (44:06.435)
huh. Yeah. Yeah. No -
Jert! (44:17.283)
They kind of here and there when we mentioned them
So today I skipped my weekly newsletter because I used launch to send out a note to other company or to other people I'm gonna send out an email From space being one from our thing next week You know, I'm skipping a week because I'm using launch this week I'm trying not to hit more than one email a week because I think it's just I don't one email week is pretty good, you know
Nick (44:45.278)
I'm probably like one every six months, I gotta do better.
Jert! (44:47.404)
Right you get get you on get you get you on a monthly schedule That'll that'll be that'll be good for you there and then you get on the monthly schedule And you started going every for every every week every four times a month, and then it just happens The important thing is always have that outward -facing But what you would ask me a question. I'm sorry space cadet
Nick (44:53.824)
Yeah.
Nick (45:06.4)
Sorry, t -shirts, do they do well for you on the site?
Jert! (45:09.004)
So yeah, they do when we put them in the newsletter and we remind people or when we came up with like, you know, a new release like with the Forbidden Psalm stuff people did them, you know, we sold It's they're definitely more of like a family and friends and then hardcore fans So like our family and friends we we we print
Nick (45:26.592)
Mm
Jert! (45:32.94)
The convention shirts, which we didn't do this one this year because we still have like 10 from last year. Most people didn't really know us when we saw closer to 20 actually from last year. We printed those with some local folks called graveyard shift here in Cape Coral and really super cool people. And, but that's just on us for being our first year and making shirts. It's not like, you know, when during the rock band era, when you have shirts, because you want someone to buy the shirt.
right away, it's like you make the shirts because friends and family, right? So we sell a lot of those that way, but the other company that we use is called T -Mill and they're from Wales and they are actually a print on demand shirt. we are as a company, out a lot of, we don't hold a lot of physical stock for those. Like.
Nick (46:07.956)
Mm
Jert! (46:29.632)
We don't hold any physical stock for them. Just we just do they have what's with TML. They just have a top up method. So you pay them like you spend like a thousand pounds or whatever and you put it in your account and then they just debit that when they create these shirts for people. So then they'll actually charge you for it. And then the customer is charging them. So you make a tiny bit of profit, but not very not you make a tiny, tiny, tiny bit of profit, but what you're making up for
Nick (46:31.466)
Mm
Jert! (46:59.698)
and profit you're losing in profit you're making up for and not having to deal with local screen printers who might or might not be having a bad day. Our folks here are fantastic but back in the rock band days and shit like that you didn't know what you were getting. mean shit half the time we just made them ourselves and they sold better. no shirts I would say and this goes and this is like part of my from experience
Nick (47:14.77)
Yeah.
Jert! (47:29.542)
working at Exalted Funerals. Shirts were, they were, they probably made more money at Exalted Funeral because they sold more of them and they had a stateside printer who could handle them.
rip fallen arrows andrew if you're listening to this yes i just mentioned you andrew andrew closed fallen arrows to go to work for exalted funeral but not doing t -shirts he works as a graphic designer there now so he closed this whole company they were he was atlanta he's still atlanta based but fallen arrows was good shit they they had deals with like a bunch of like sporting teams and stuff like that in in the atlanta
Nick (47:45.056)
You
Jert! (48:11.227)
area and so like a lot of like smaller like they had the MLS team what are the MLS team is from there Atlanta I can't remember
Nick (48:17.876)
So, have, I do Printful as my print -on -demand connection that I have with my website, and I rarely ever get shirt orders. I mostly just buy samples for them to wear. Like, the one I'm wearing is a sample version of the screen -printed one that I actually got screen -printed that I had as an add -on for when I had this game on Kickstarter. But I hear what you're saying, like, it's a nightmare to have to stock different sizes and...
Jert! (48:23.264)
Mm -hmm. Yep.
Jert! (48:27.968)
Yeah.
Yep.
Yeah.
Jert! (48:37.089)
Yep.
Nick (48:47.125)
colors and stuff. And my website used to have a lot more shirts, but nobody was ordering them, so I really reduced the amount just to declutter the site. I guess what it all comes down to is I don't do any advertising for my actual web page, and I probably should. Do you do advertising for your space penguin dot ink website? Or is it all just people who find you through Kickstarter?
Jert! (48:47.201)
Mm -hmm.
Jert! (49:08.204)
No, we've done, we've spent the majority of our marketing money through crowd funds through Kickstarter for that for right now with this OSE book that we're doing on.
in November for the Ghost of Zona, Zona Mountain. I think we're going to try some, doing a DIY and it herself. a good friend of mine, Adam, who works in SEO for a live event company. And he has kind of taught me like some basics of SEO and how to do that. So he's like kind of a whiz with the meta ads and stuff like that. So I'm going to see if he can, you know, work with, Dai who's our marketing guy who handles our.
like day to day, like socials and shit like that and like all the graphic designs. So to roll all the way back to the beginning, I'm the editor. I am not graphic design, unlike yourself. I am not graphic design. I am not the artist. I am not the painter. I am the editor. So I can do all of the editing on a thing and I am sometimes writer, but I definitely, I pay a person to do all, to make all of my visuals and stuff like that. So totally worth it because he's also connected
Nick (50:05.419)
hehe
Nick (50:24.438)
Mm
Jert! (50:26.498)
and does a lot of these games with me. Like we work on a lot of freelance. there's, we have a couple of clients that that's Jert and Dai are the duo. I do the editing and Dai does the layout because we have a really fast turnaround on proofreading these things. So I don't know how many RPGs you've made over your lifetime, but getting them edited takes a long time.
because they're so hard. No, it doesn't take a long time. We actually turn them out really fast.
Nick (50:55.19)
Yeah, that's one of the main reasons why I don't like working with other people. It's because I work so incredibly fast that it's frustrating for others who don't. So, yeah, I've never ran ads for my website specifically. I've ran ads for Kickstarter projects, but I was recently at this local art summit in St. Pete.
Jert! (51:04.609)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
Nick (51:23.644)
and I went to the seminar on branding and it was hosted by someone who had on the podcast who runs a theater company. He's in charge of marketing for a local theater company and he noticed that they always get better. I guess they develop more customer loyalty when they market the theater versus when they market the shows at the theater. So I wanted to try and when I get to a point where I have like an actual marketing budget to play with.
Jert! (51:31.766)
Mm -hmm.
Jert! (51:45.28)
Mm -hmm.
Nick (51:54.142)
I want to try using that philosophy going in where I am marketing the chain assembly brand and the products made by that brand rather than just a specific product. Because I think that might help me target people who would become returning customers rather than someone who only interacts with me on Kickstarter and then they somehow disappear because my emails don't get to them or anything like that. So it seems like it might be a harder get to find that customer, but in the long run, it might be more worth it.
Do you have any thoughts on that?
Jert! (52:24.563)
Yeah, no, I mean, just let's let's face it. It's twenty twenty four. We are all being we are all being marketed to.
Nick (52:33.046)
You
Jert! (52:34.422)
what you do.
like the number of ads that a person sees in a day, if they stop and totaled it down, just get a little notebook, put it in your pocket and look at every, every bit of advertising and branding and logo and whatnot, and just be like, wow, that's a lot, you know? And the real trick with those, with the targeted marketing like that is make cool stuff that people see. And, you know, interesting that there is a difference between marketing the brand overall versus the
like you said, the shows that play there, that's definitely a concern with stuff like should I, I'm gonna ask Adam, I'm gonna be like, should we just do a weird books for weird people or Space Penguin Inc. or just do something like that that just kind of gives a little bit of that and just see how that falls into different spots and stuff like that. Because I look at our numbers on Shopify and I can see and I understand where, I understand
Nick (53:08.875)
Mm
Jert! (53:36.782)
more than the average person looking at Shopify what these marketing numbers actually mean and you know where you're seeing because Adam Adam pretty much gave me a crash course in it but I've not done the whole reverse spending money going out on it so we'll see how that goes interesting we're gonna have to we're gonna you and I you and I are gonna have to have a summit after we do that and see how it goes
Nick (53:54.708)
I know when I look at my Shopify... Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's a good idea. So like, I don't... I barely know Shopify. I know enough to run a site, but I have never allocated the time to learn more into what I'm doing there. But I can tell that the majority of the traffic I get is from people who found old Kickstarter projects of mine. So that just kind of goes to show that I am not...
showing up in a lot of search results. I'm not showing up on Facebook search results. course, Facebook will never show you anything unless you pay to have it shown. But like there is definitely potential out there for me to market. so I don't know if this is true, but somewhere around the somewhere I heard the thought that like advertising with Google requires a minimum $500. So I'm just like, wait until I have $500. I don't need and then I'll try it. I don't know if that's true.
Jert! (54:26.707)
Mm
Jert! (54:49.968)
I'm...
Sure, I actually get like $500 in free ad credits all the time from Google Workspace because I use GW Workspace for all of our GW for all of our shit just helps me keep track of things a lot faster and better so yeah, I should probably blow my $500 in free ads and and see what happens see if it's worthwhile so I don't I don't even know what what that will do I don't know what what will $500 turn into what would I like it to turn into I'd like to turn it into is it
You know, what do you, what does one expect? Does one turn that into $5 ,000? Does one turn that into $50 ,000? Does it somewhere in between? Yeah. Yeah.
Nick (55:29.258)
Alright. It's really hard to track your ROAS if you're just sending people to your website in general. I guess maybe what you're trying to count is how many people join your emailing list.
Jert! (55:41.6)
Right now someone's listening and being like, this is basic marketing YouTube, my fucking God. And if you are, right, and you should be, and you should email me at support at spacepenguin .ink and be like, come on man, figure it out, figure it out.
Nick (55:46.644)
Well, if someone is listening, you should be on the podcast. Yeah.
Nick (56:00.014)
Yeah, I've been I've been thinking like I should hire a consultant to just kind of tear apart my website and record the whole thing as an episode No, no my website my website sorry, yeah
Jert! (56:09.932)
tear apart your whole apartment? Your website, okay. thought you said, sorry, I misheard.
Nick (56:18.28)
So let's talk about what do you have coming up? Anything new other than your email list that you want to promote?
Jert! (56:23.852)
Yeah, so I've mentioned it. I mentioned it a couple of times. We have the Ghosts of Zozano Mountain coming up that's going to hit crowdfunding on Bacchor Kit in November. So that's a big 92 page hardcover full of beautifully painted work by a Finnish gentleman named Tuomas Vaklinen. And it is a follow up sort of seagull in the same world to his previous zine Elder Oak
which I published during my time when I was working at Exalted Funeral. I was the face of the zine program there. So a bunch of people who knew me from there have now, like a couple years later, finished up and they're like, you're not there, you're here. You want to do this? And I was like, I'll do it. Let's see what happens. And it's ghosts and a mountain. And there is my favorite image from the book so far.
is the players find themselves looking up through a glass floor at the room above them.
But the perspective of the art that he's drawn is you're literally looking at this like fucking trapezoid, like this prism going straight up and you're actually like looking through and you can see everything that's in the circumference of that room. it's, Thomas's art is amazing. It's so good. So that one is, you can just, no.
Nick (57:52.468)
Is there an easy domain to go to to find this launch project?
Nick (58:01.489)
Hahaha
Jert! (58:02.796)
I can you can put it your shoe. I can send it to you you can put it in your show notes though
Nick (58:08.533)
Yeah.
Nick (58:12.822)
So what I usually do is I'll create like giallo .chainassembly .com and have that redirect to the launch page. And when the Kickstarter's live, change it to redirect to the Kickstarter page. When the Kickstarter ends, have it redirect to that page on my website. Or I'll just buy a domain. But if I don't think a project deserves a domain on its own, again, it's just a subdomain that I'm constantly changing where it directs to.
Jert! (58:37.92)
So this is where my indie roleplaying games dot com domain and my indie RPGs dot com domain that I have, they've had for a little while that I've never used. I should use them. No, but folks can go on BaccarKit and look at ghosts of Zoezana Mountain. Zoezana, Z -O -A -Z -A -N -N -A.
Nick (58:49.256)
Yeah.
Jert! (59:01.42)
And then we also have going at the same time as that one will be Survivors of the Core War. It's a 50 card deck. They're going to be big, oversized, almost postcard, like four by six cards of NPCs for the mothership sci -fi horror RPG. on the back, it'll have full stats. So if you just want to use these, you can just use these as pre -gens, you can use them as NPCs.
You can use them as NPCs who become characters when someone dies and whatnot like that and that'll come with in a nice box So that's gonna be our first card So I'm probably gonna be messaging you and being like what should I do? You know what? I'll ask you like what sort of weights and stuff that you do for your cards, you know in your paper and things like that Trust me. I'll be picking your brain. I'm always I'm always down to learn new stuff. So we've got those coming up we endless horror is going to print today and that's
Nick (59:53.322)
Okay.
Jert! (01:00:01.334)
being packaged up soon as soon as that lands hungry hollow the parthenages of hungry hollow is going out the door
Jert! (01:00:17.004)
Dead Festival 4
Nightmare we've done the fulci zombie we just Yeah, we just kind of pull a lot of random stuff out of really great horror films of light file the serial numbers off put in some sort of a win condition and you've got yourself a forbidden -soul scenario and they're really really really really fun So and it gives people an excuse to catch slashers and it's just like that and xenomorphs. So So that's coming up next month and then
Nick (01:00:47.926)
Cool.
Nick (01:01:09.589)
Thanks.
Jert! (01:01:12.83)
Early next year we've got a couple of board games We've got at least one board game and one book going on next year plus We've got more monthly zines that come out all the time rimbound transmission for motherships coming out soon Yeah, people just just if just can find us at space penguin dot ink That's actually and just sign up for our email list. That is the best way see I did it I marketed I did a marketing
Nick (01:01:16.951)
Nick (01:01:36.822)
You did a marketing.
Jert! (01:01:40.758)
can sign up for an email list, our email list, and find out all about this because I promised you to only send out one email week. I try my best.
Nick (01:01:51.668)
Well, I signed up because the books that you have on your store are so cool looking. I mean, like a lot of times I find myself buying role playing games just because I like the cover and I never actually have time to open them. But it's a good thing that yours are actually filled with some cool content too. Yep. Yep. All Well, thank you so much for taking some time to chat with me. I learned a lot and I hope someone listening enjoyed.
Jert! (01:01:53.91)
Cool.
Jert! (01:02:09.376)
Yes, yes, thank you, yes, yeah, you got some forbidden song right there.
Nick (01:02:21.748)
listening to it too. Thank you. Sign up for the email list at spacepenguin .inc. Thank you. Thanks, Jert. Bye.
Jert! (01:02:23.232)
Sign up for the email list.
Jert! (01:02:28.113)
Thanks for having me on Nick. Appreciate it.
Outro
Chain Assembly: Art for profit sake is recorded through Riverside FM, distributed through Spotify for podcasters, and edited on Adobe Audition. The music is provided by Old Romans. If you learned anything useful or found this podcast helpful, please rate and review us five stars. If you want to learn more about me or my art, head over to ChainAssembly.com.
