In this engaging conversation, Nick interviews Audrey Christensen, an artist known for her unique blend of embroidery and watercolor. They discuss Audrey's artistic journey, her transition from doll making to embroidery, and the evolution of her art style. Audrey shares insights on pricing her work, the importance of community in art markets, and her experiences with online sales and social media. The conversation also touches on her use of Substack as a platform for deeper connection with her audience and as an additional source of income.
- https://www.heybefab.com
- https://www.tiktok.com/@heybefab
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- Music by Old Romans: https://www.instagram.com/old_romans
You can listen to the episode here (or wherever you listen to podcasts) or read the transcript below:
Nick (00:01.251)
So today on the podcast, I'm lucky enough to have an incredible painter and writer, not writer, sorry. my God, I just lost the word. Needle pointer, embroider, that's it. Okay. All right. Well then, an incredible person named Audrey Christensen. Audrey, thank you for taking some time to speak to me.
Audrey Christensen (00:13.406)
Sure, yeah, but I'm also a writer too, so like I'll take that as well. You just knew already.
Audrey Christensen (00:26.74)
Yeah, for sure. I'm so excited to be here. I always just love hearing and doing different stories with a variety of different people. So I'm like, love when people are like, my God, do want to do that? like, yes, please. Let's have a great conversation.
Nick (00:39.503)
Very cool. Thank you. Well, so let I'm gonna start by saying how I found out about you and your work and it was through tik -tok Tik -tok is my social media app of choice It's the one that consumes most of my time and I was blown away by your videos of what you do, which is you do Embroidery correct me if I'm wrong very simple line work, but really expressive characters in the line work
Audrey Christensen (01:07.83)
Yes.
Nick (01:09.057)
And then where it really shines is you do painting on top of that. Now, I know in your videos you said it's watercolor, but these are the most dramatic watercolors I've ever seen. So right off the bat, I gotta ask you, where do you get your watercolors?
Audrey Christensen (01:19.476)
you
They're actually hand -ground watercolors from an artist down here in Utah is where I'm located. Her name is Nancy Olson and she hand -grounds all of the watercolors and I like get them from her. And so like it's, it's, you know, there's a collaboration together that she does and she has vibrant colors and it makes me like super duper excited. Every time I see them, I'm like, please give me all of them and let me just douse myself in them because they're great.
Nick (01:46.447)
It's amazing. So I do some watercolors too and over the years I've ended up really falling in love with Culture Hustle's watercolors. And they're very bright and very neon but they're not like the ones you're using. Can you just start by telling me how you ended up doing that particular style?
Audrey Christensen (02:08.126)
Right? So crazy. It was really, I tell people all the time it's because I was lazy.
because I, well, embroidery, and when people consider thread painting, where they're literally painting all of the different colors with the different stitches and thread and the shadows and all of that kind of stuff, that takes time. Embroidery is not for the fainted heart. It's just you have so much that you have to put in there and so much to do. And when I first started doing embroidery, it was actually because I was a doll maker. That's how I started back into my art. And so I started to embroider people's faces on dolls.
make dolls that look like people. And so I was like, I could actually make art out of this embroidery. And so then I started to do that. But then I did not, I did not want to spend 16, 20 ,000 hours threading all of the different things in there. And I was like, well, what else could I do? Because I really love the medium. I really love stitching things. I really love being involved in that. And I had some little dinky watercolor sitting off to the side. And I was like, my god, let me just put it right on here.
And like so the first piece that I did was actually of a person that was like halfway underwater and is kind of like what the line that the line drawings that I did on there and so I was like, okay Well, I'll put this blue watercolor on here and see kind of what that would look like and I like I used very fine art watercolor at the time that it was like dr. P. H Martin's fine water art watercolor that I used and it just kind of spread everywhere and I like immediately fell in love
with the idea of having that fabric just absorb everything and I had no control over it. And it was this most freeing experience that I have ever had with any piece of art that I've ever created. And I was just like, my gosh, this is something. There's something here with that. And then when you find something that you just love so much, you just become very obsessive, right? And you make as much as you possibly can make. And I just spent so many hours just creating different things and trying to figure out, I'm like, how?
Audrey Christensen (04:12.422)
do I add the watercolor here well enough where it's not going to like bleed into different things and so I just spent hours and hours after that just trying to like fine -tune this idea of like how can I control the chaos that is this this liquid thing that I have like have no control over and I it was very fun to be able to try to figure out how I could do that.
Nick (04:34.133)
Well, I guess diving more into that, aside from the watercolor, have you noticed that you needed to use different types of thread or different types of... I assume there's a word other than fabric that you use in the case of embroidery? Just called fabric? Okay.
Audrey Christensen (04:39.381)
Yeah.
Audrey Christensen (04:48.14)
it.
I use fabric boo. like, yeah, there was like, that's, I mean, that's what exploration is. And curiosity is, is when you use any type of medium, right? You do that, that experimenting of like, well, what works here and what doesn't work here. And so, yeah, I definitely tried a variety of different fabrics. tried to, I didn't try different, honestly, I was like, let's be traditional. Because I liked the idea of taking this very traditional, very woman's work idea and like turning it,
Nick (04:51.928)
Okay.
Audrey Christensen (05:19.098)
on its head and making it something completely opposite of what we're so used to seeing. Especially during that time, like it was back in the time where it was it was like people were very much doing like the very traditional embroideries.
what you normally see and so being able to be in this fear of like completely doing the opposite of that but yet still honoring the practice of it. I wanted to keep as much tradition that I could in there because it was fascinating to me to be able to like pull that apart but yet have it still at the same. So I kept like the threading very similar like the stitching that I do is very traditional and the thing that wasn't was the idea that I could be this mixed media queen and figure out other ways to do that and so yeah I tried a variety of different
fabrics to kind of figure out what it is. And that's what it is. That's what art is, is that you get to be curious about it.
Nick (06:09.959)
So, like, my own journey into watercolor was, so like I said, I always do, I primarily do digital art. And I guess I had to do even more backstory for this. So the reason why I do all the art that I do and all the products I do under the name Chain Assembly was because I started off by doing graphic design for disc golf tournaments in my area. And Chain Assembly is what you call the top part of the basket.
Audrey Christensen (06:13.995)
Yeah.
Audrey Christensen (06:32.554)
But.
Nick (06:36.679)
And so when I did my first run of like a limited edition, I did my own design that I got printed onto stamps. I mean, sorry, that I got stamped onto disks as like a limited edition series that was done with a magnesium die plate. That's how they do the hot stamping. they laser etch it or acid etch. I don't know how they do it, but it's etch magnesium. Then they, you know, press on the foil that goes into the plastic and they sent me the stamp. And I was like, this is fun.
Audrey Christensen (06:46.454)
Yeah.
Audrey Christensen (07:01.418)
Yeah.
Nick (07:05.323)
I gotta do something with it. So I scratched up the surface and then I did, I wanted to do basically block printing with it. So I did that and the idea I had was if I used an oil -based ink, I could water color on top of each print and basically color it in like coloring book pages. And that way each print would not only be a separate print but it would also be even more personalized. And it all worked according to plan and it was super fun.
Audrey Christensen (07:22.347)
Yeah.
Nick (07:32.065)
So I then did a linoleum block printing, something that I did back in elementary school. And again, with the oil -based ink and the watercolor, worked really well. But I don't find the carving to be the most fun part of that. So then I did a digital design that was laser etched on wood. And then I did the oil -based ink print again, watercolor on top of that worked well. And then finally I was like, you know, I wonder if I could just do a laser print on watercolor paper.
And that also worked perfectly fine. I did try all of this with, at some point I tried it with water -based inks, but the watercolor would always smear no matter how long I let that ink dry. As soon as you put water on it, it smudges all over the place, so I had to stick with the oil -based ink. But just like I was saying with you, I mean, just like with you, it's all about finding those different materials to get you that kind of result you want. So it was just fun seeing someone else who played with it similarly as me.
Audrey Christensen (08:01.024)
Yes.
Audrey Christensen (08:13.686)
you
Audrey Christensen (08:30.415)
I
Like that's what you have to do and I think that I worry that sometimes people get so afraid of being curious of like making mistakes and failing at things or not trying things the way that they should right but that's the way that we create things and that's I think what's so great about Creatives and artists themselves is that we get to have the ability to not have to worry or be be put into this little box It's like well, you're not allowed to be afraid about things and you're not allowed to be curious about things But we're like we're gonna be
rebel and we got to do whatever we want to do and things that are not traditional or how could we add these things together? I think that's the most fascinating thing about being a creative is that we get to have that freedom to be able to be explorers and be the ones that are out there like going through all of that kind of stuff and then sharing it and having the ability to like where how we are connected on that on the TikTok way like getting to be able to see how other people do things gets us so excited to be able to achieve other things and I think it's brilliant that we
are in this time and age where we get to to not only be explorers but we also get to be the ones that to share our knowledge and different things about how we do things as well as great.
Nick (09:41.595)
So, I mean, I only know this particular, for lack of a better term, product line. I guess series would be the art term. This particular series of your work, are there other things that you are creating now or has this kind of become your style and you're focusing on that, you're having so much fun in it?
Audrey Christensen (09:48.064)
Yeah!
Audrey Christensen (09:51.67)
Yeah.
Audrey Christensen (09:57.8)
I like, I'm like, I am a specialist in this, right? But no, my God, no, I would never wanna stay in one little place. Like, I'm a self -taught artist. so like, I, and sometimes that can be a little bit difficult because I don't know a lot of different things for things. And so I find myself like really like...
immersing myself in things that I didn't realize that I could do or that I had the ability to do or had the knowledge to do. And so like I've been like experimenting like with putting like mixed media together with like acrylics and paintings on canvases and like adding the thread in there. And what's been fun is that like I've done like some embroidery pieces where they were just like crap, right? They were the worst thing ever that I ever did. I was hated them so bad. And they would sit on my desk and I'd be like, my gosh, you're horrible. You know, just how you have those pieces of art that you're like, this is like the worst thing that I've ever made.
in my life. I'm never going to show this to anybody else. And I had this one time when I, when you have those those moments where you just, you haven't created for a while, right? You have other life things that are happening and you're just like, you have like that anxiety and the tense build up, right? There was just one session that I did one night. It was like,
I put my kids to bed. was like, I really hurried them to bed is what I said because I had so much of this built up anxiety and that I just knew that I needed to release it in some way or some form. And so I hurried and rushed them to bed. And I just remember like looking at that really awful piece of embroidery that I did that just didn't work well. Like the paint didn't, it just became like a brown muddy mess and it was just not anything that I liked. And then I also had some acrylic paintings that I were working on for a collection that I was doing for a gallery that I had. Right. And I remember just seeing them, they're like,
side by side and I have this really big canvas that was completely blank and I was like, my God, what would happen if I put...
Audrey Christensen (11:41.596)
things together, right? And so like I took that really awful embroidery and like I cut it up in this like just this rage of just anxiety cutting all of the different pieces of the fabric and I'm like sticking it and gluing it and trying to find ways to like put it and attach it to this canvas and and then putting like like thick you know paint on top of it and just watching like the texture build and build on top of it and it just allowed all of this stuff that was happening within me just kind of like vomit itself out onto this really big canvas.
Nick (11:43.267)
Ha ha ha
Audrey Christensen (12:12.103)
And it was just really fun to be able like now that's the piece of art that this was meant to be like this the reason why it wasn't working here was because it didn't belong to it didn't live there It wasn't supposed to be born this way It was supposed to be be able to mix into this different thing and so that's been really fun to just allow myself to be like Okay, let's try other things and see how that kind of work But yet still take what I what I'm known for and what I love so much and what I'm so passionate about and still being able to push the
boundaries a little bit further and see what else could happen with that.
Nick (12:46.255)
I romanticize artists like you who can just throw energy and create a masterpiece. I don't have that in me. Everything I have to do, everything I do starts with a color scheme that I stick to, a set of fonts that I stick to, and then a spreadsheet of to -do lists, and I have to work my way through that to -do list. I have to plan everything out meticulously.
I just, don't have any improvisation in me. Even when I'm sitting down to do watercolors to relax, I'm basically coloring those prints that I made. So even then, the only decision I have to make is what color am I putting here? What color is the shadow gonna be? What color is the light gonna be? So, that's cool. But.
Audrey Christensen (13:27.209)
See, I...
So like, I go with people like you. I wish that I had that analytical mind in that way that I would be able, I'm like, I feel like I would accomplish so much because I'm like, I feel like I'm one of those like quote unquote, pretend starving artists that are like, I cannot function without the emotion, right? And so there's some days that I was like, it'd be really nice if I didn't have to feel lots of things. So that I could just be the artist that I wanna be without having to like really dive deep into my soul to find anything. So I envy you on that sense.
Nick (13:42.375)
You
Nick (13:56.143)
So these embroidery pieces that you're doing, would you say that's kind what you're known for right now? Okay, and so what has been your journey with pricing those and sizing those? Like what sizes do you usually do? Do you stick to one size? Do you have set prices for each one? How does that work for you?
Audrey Christensen (14:02.56)
Yeah.
Audrey Christensen (14:08.716)
Sure, my God.
Audrey Christensen (14:13.184)
No.
So, I mean, that's a journey, right? My God, because when I first started it out, I was experimenting. I was known completely for something else. I was known for the cloth dolls that I was making. During that time when I was doing that, it was a very hard transition for me to be like, I don't wanna do those anymore, because I was teaching workshop classes and I was teaching all of these different things and I was really known in my community of the person that was the doll maker, right? And I was like, I don't wanna do that anymore. It was just not something that it was,
anything that I wanted. And so to transition over into this new realm and this new beanie event and to really, because I was like, I finally found this thing that is mine. It was hard to be okay with disappointing people.
You know, it was very difficult to be like, I don't want to do this thing anymore. And like having to like teach people that I am something completely different. And there was a lot of fear that was associated with that, right? So I found myself like really underestimating the pricing that I would do for that. When people were like, I'll purchase that. was like, my God, that's so great. And I would have, it would be like the cheapest price that you could, I didn't make anything off of it, but I was like, my God, somebody likes the thing that I did. And so it was hard.
Nick (15:23.63)
Ha ha ha
Audrey Christensen (15:32.782)
to realize that you're worth in that because it's definitely something that when you are you're at that beginning stages of things you you can't fathom that somebody would would would actually buy something from you at the price that it should be should be priced at and so you you have you start off at that very low end right and then you get the confidence and you get the ability to move forward and to adjust those pricing and I did that consistently and anytime that I felt like okay
And I would go back to my emotions because that's what we do, right? I would sit there and I would look at my pieces and I'd be like, why are you worth this much? what is that really about this piece that I could be okay and could be comfortable? And whereas like that, where is my nervous system sitting in this? And would I be okay if this piece sold for that amount? Or would it really make my heart hurt that I knew that I took this piece that it wasn't necessarily the price that I wanted to price it at? And I would sit with that for a while.
And so no, it's definitely changed. I've done I've been doing this for now like about five four and a half five years Where I'm doing exclusively the watercolor and borderies and pricing those and selling those and it's my price from the very beginning was like, know small little, you know six inch hoop that's like nothing for like 20 bucks to now that six inch hoop I've sold, you know over for I like the highest price point that I think I've ever had a six inch piece was probably around $200 where I
I'm offering that to people and that's still like very small and very tiny and that still makes me go, my God, is anybody gonna buy it? And have lots of feelings with it. But you adjust that and you allow yourself to become confident in what you choose to do because it's all based on what you want to do. And that's hard as an artist because we want people to love us and we want our work to be there and we just wanna give and give whatever we have because that's the most important thing for us.
Nick (17:30.945)
So this might be hard to estimate, but... Sorry, hard to estimate. Yeah, hard to estimate. I'm going with that one. This might be hard to estimate, but about how long do you have a completed piece in your inventory before it gets sold? If you can guess that. A six inch hoop. Okay.
Audrey Christensen (17:48.712)
Sure, no, I could tell you. I could tell you, I got a piece sitting here that's been chilling. I would have there, here's a story for you that I think would be the best way to be able to understand it is that.
Nick (17:58.734)
Okay.
Audrey Christensen (18:04.62)
I do a lot of markets throughout Utah, and there's different types of pop -ups and different things that I'm at that I go to consistently. And I share a lot of my work online. That's how we knew each other. And so I'll share the process of me actually creating it. So people watch me make the pieces. And they spend time with me as we're making them via online. And so they'll see the process of me doing that. And then I'll go to markets. And then people will see me at the markets, they'll look at those types of things.
And it's a big commitment for people to be like, this is what I want. Because people don't know what to do with it. Like, what do you do with a watercolor and body? Why do you hang this up on the wall? People don't grasp the understanding of it. And so I had an experience just recently where I created this piece and I did all of that, like what I told you. And it was like maybe six months or so where I've had this piece and I would go and I would show it at these markets. And I was at this one event and I had...
like a customer that was at my booth and she and I were talking about different things and she purchased, because I do prints and stickers and all of that other lower price points as you have to do to be able to be successful and I had those there and so she purchased like little tinier things that weren't as much money and then it was probably, and so I had that piece for about six months and then saw her and then it was probably maybe another three months later I get a DM from this person that was like, I saw you at this market.
I haven't stopped thinking about this piece since I've seen you. Do you still have it and can I get it from you? And so.
Knowing that that has resonated with her and that's been something that she's been thinking about, you know, and I was so grateful that I still had that piece, you know, it's by this time it's been what a year or so, right? Since I from the beginning conception until it's been went off into its home and so I believe that every piece that I create has a has a home or a spirit or a place that it's going to be going to and then I can't predict that and that if I put all of these these expectations or these limitations
Audrey Christensen (20:11.063)
on this type of thing, the person that deserves it, that needs it, that's going to resonate with it, that makes them feel something about it, like, I can't take that away from them, right? And so sometimes we have to just sit in the knowing that what we do have and how we do express ourselves will eventually belong to somebody that it needs. And so I have, and that's been multiple times, I've had pieces that have had that story.
Nick (20:34.743)
So to get back to the, I mean that's beautiful story, but to get back to the question. Do you find that you're like, okay, I need to slow down on making these because I've got too many, I need to sell some more before I do them. Do you bring all of them to the markets you do? Do you just bring the ones you think you're gonna sell? Do you rotate what you bring?
Audrey Christensen (20:48.863)
Mmm.
Audrey Christensen (20:56.768)
You want me to be very analytical. I like it. Let's go down. Let's break it down a little bit more. Okay. I love that though. Cause I'm like, I'll give you all the fluffy stuff, but let's go, let's go business wise. Okay. Let's think about it. So yes, I do all of that too, right? It's very important because we're, trying to be successful in what we do so that we can, we can buy more art supplies so that we can purchase the things that we can do so we can create the art, right? So yes, I'm very strategic in the ways of things in that way. Like depending on the market that I go to,
Nick (20:59.128)
Hahaha!
You
Audrey Christensen (21:26.714)
or depending on where I'm selling my stuff are, depending what gallery I'm putting things in or whatever it is, I'm going to be mindful about who are the people there.
you know, is there somebody gonna be there that's gonna resonate with my art? Because I have like nudie patooties and sometimes nudie patooties do not work well in certain places and different things, right? And so I do, I'm very considerate about where I'm going to have these pieces or how they're gonna be and undo that. And so I think about that specifically, yes. And so I'll take certain pieces and have them in those places to make sure that I am gonna be successful at wherever event that I'm going to be or whatever I'm doing online is gonna be successful.
And so I'll have that very specific thing on there. But sometimes, most times, I'll have the pieces that I, you know, I really love.
right? That's mine. That I want people to know me of, right? And so you have to have those two points, right? You have to have that balance, that yin and yang of like, well, here's the different things that people will be able to do. Affordability, right? That's why I have stickers, right? And that's why I have prints. And that's why I have, you know, like keychains and like the little dinky things that you see in a variety of different places because there's only certain amount of people that will be able to purchase things that way. But then I'll have my higher price points in hopes that somebody is going
to be like that experience that that's that story that I share.
Audrey Christensen (22:49.448)
We as artists, even though I'm a carefree, like emotional, like my god, I still have to be in that way where I'm making very strategic choices about those types of things because it is important for me to be successful. I'm gonna have to start with a foundation and a base place of like where could I go from here and how can I continue to grow this and take on that responsibility of making sure that I am successful and whatever that success looks like for me.
Nick (23:16.461)
Okay, I mean, from my experience during markets, I have learned that the less you have in your space, the better you're going to sell. And by less, I don't necessarily mean quantity. mean like breadth of items. Because when someone comes into your booth, they want to be able to in two seconds, tell themselves this is what this is. Am I interested in that? Yes or no.
Audrey Christensen (23:24.78)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Nick (23:43.359)
If they're not able to decide from what they're looking at, then they're not gonna spend the time, because there's so many other people out there that they need to see before they have to go back home and pick up their kids from school or whatever it is. So, I've noticed that if I go to a market with all the different things I've made, I'm gonna kinda come home with all those things, because nothing's sold. But if I go there with just my tarot decks, then people will be like, that's the guy who makes tarot decks?
Audrey Christensen (23:54.645)
Great.
Nick (24:09.889)
I've never tried it, let me try it. And then they'll be interested in it more so than it's like, well, he's got Terodex, he's got board games, he's got role playing games, he's got art. So I guess what that kind of ties to is have you noticed a similar thing when you have different categories of art all under one space?
Audrey Christensen (24:28.234)
Yes and no. I would say yes. I definitely agree with you that...
Because I also run an art market for vendors in Utah. And so we have these conversations consistently with people. And I have the people that are kind of like, this is shiny, and this is shiny, and this is shiny, right? And they're the people that have multiple mediums of a variety of different things. And then they bring their whole house and have that. you're just like, that's going to be nice for you. Yes, I definitely agree with you that you have to have that curation, right? You have to understand of like, OK, well,
how does this fit in with this and will this work? Just like if you're going to be going to a gallery show or if you're going to be going to a museum, certain places have certain things and they have certain places so that we are not over. Yeah. And so it's definitely where you have to be able to look at that on there. The thing that I would say that I'm opposite with you on is the less is more.
Nick (25:17.391)
Curation is a great word to describe what I was trying to say, so thank you for throwing that in there.
Audrey Christensen (25:33.772)
aspect of that thing. Like I don't think that for me, and I am as you can tell, we're very emotional. And so how I set my booth up, which is something that I've learned over time, right? Like you, you're going to get into the process of looking at all of those different types of things. And like, how are, how are people shopping my stuff and how are people going to do that? And you always change your mind and you always fix things. And sometimes you do that in the middle of the market and you change the way that your setup is. Right. And that's cool. And that's great. And that's fabulous. And you can do that. But what I've learned over time for me,
Nick (25:40.964)
Ha ha!
Audrey Christensen (26:03.726)
is I would be considered like where...
I do like a bunch of like, I only print out one thing that I have like of my prints, but I will have like 30 of those different types of styles that go close to that. And I will have it set up like a gallery. And so people will come into my booth and they will spend time looking at every piece that I have as print wise, which is my lower end items. And so they'll spend all of that time and all of that energy and they're being immersed in, they're immersing themselves in who I am.
they get and reach to my table that have those bigger pieces and have those different things that are curated in the same theme, right, is what I really want to be very specific about that because I think that is important. But by the time they reach me they've already experienced me and so they will then spend that time and that energy to be like, okay well this is what I want and this is how I've done. And so I've learned that by giving them the ability to really take their time and their energy with me that what I
I've seen people not care about what other people are doing in the other booth next to me or not caring what other things are because they are so immersed in the experience that I've provided them. And I think that goes with anything. You don't have to be this high feeling person like I am, but when I've seen the curation process that's happening within people's booths and you bring your personality, you bring the things that you're known for, and you bring those things that are going there and you give them the ability to actually be immersed into what it is that you are and who you are.
as the artist, then they're going to be more accepting of wanting to get that thing from you. Does that make sense?
Nick (27:44.439)
Yeah, that's very well said and a more practical follow up to what you said. You talk about immersing them in your space in your booth. Does that mean you position your table in the back of your booth? So they have to go into your space? OK, OK, because I've seen a lot of artists, they'll they'll they want the booth to represent their safe space. So they have the table up against the edge. So artists can't I mean, so
Audrey Christensen (27:49.814)
I love
Audrey Christensen (28:00.427)
Yeah.
Nick (28:13.731)
Customers can't really enter it and I rarely ever see that work. So Yeah, I like that I mean, I like I like what you're saying about the tent being a representation of your personality So let's transition then into your event the yard sale. How did that start? How's that going for you? How do you curate who's gonna be in that because I haven't had anyone on the podcast who has organized their own art markets
Audrey Christensen (28:21.685)
it.
Audrey Christensen (28:33.344)
Yeah.
Audrey Christensen (28:38.326)
Yeah.
Audrey Christensen (28:43.618)
my gosh, let's talk about it. That's like my favorite thing in the world, besides my own art. So in Utah, where I'm located when COVID happened, Horrible, awful thing. A lot of my artist friends and I were full -time artists, right? And we were left without the opportunities of...
events and things right all of that shut down for us and in Utah and where I'm specifically located is in Ogden, Utah They had like when it started to slowly come back and things were starting to be not as crazy not as insane They started to have the farmer markets come back, but they would only take food vendors They would only take the you know the produce the things like that and all of the all of us were kind of left with nothing And there was a lot of us that didn't have Like a lot of my friends didn't know
or understand how to do online stores. They never did that before. They weren't required to do that before, right? They could just go to a market and people would buy their things. my God, right? And so they never moved into, they never followed the flow of what things are, right? And so there was a lot of them that just couldn't, they wasn't able to like, to come back from what they were trying to do. And I...
And so my house that I have, like I have a half an acre. And I just remember sitting out in my yard one time during that time. was like, you know what? I could I could make my own little yard sell. Like what would happen if I had all my friends that need need a space to sell all of this art that they have been making because we're in a pandemic, right? We're stuck inside and doing all that. They have all this stuff like I could make it safe enough for them to sell their stuff and just like my like my backyard.
Like what would happen? What would happen if I had people come into my backyard and we could do this? And so then I like put it out on my social media and I was like, my gosh, what could it, would anybody come to this if I had this in my yard and I had it safe, right?
Audrey Christensen (30:39.948)
And had a lot of great responses, right? A lot of my friends are like, I would totally be in. I have so much art that I need to sell. I would love to do it. And so I was like, okay, cool. I'll figure out how I'm supposed to do this. So like I contacted the health department. I followed the, I went into the city and I found all of these different things that I was supposed to do, make sure that I was following all of the bylaws that was for my city and doing all of that kind of stuff. And I spent time and energy to create this things. And then I put people six feet apart and made them wear masks. And I had to have people sign in and it was a whole.
ordeal, like this whole thing. And I got it together and I posted it on social media that I'm like, I had, think I had like 25 friends at that time, whereas like 25 different booths where they came in and they took over my backyard. And then I opened it to the public and like over 200 people, community members came to this event because I had to have them sign in for the health department. And it was, it's this beautiful, magical thing that happened in my space and in my home.
and we just saw people being, you know, just really seen for what it is and they were able to purchase, like people were purchasing things and supporting each other and a lot of my friends were then able to use that money towards about getting their online shops going and going to different things and it just built this big huge lack of community that we had during that time and then I was like, cool, let's do it again in the spring.
And then that's just kind of how it progressed. it got to the point now that it got so big that the city of where I'm located was like,
this is bigger than we anticipated. There's lots of things that are happening. Your traffic control, like it was like the cars were like taking over the neighborhood and it was this big, this big, event, you know? And so, they're like, we can't have you do it in your backyard anymore. legally we just, it's, just a safety hazard. And so they're like, come do this at this park that we have. And I was like, okay, fine. And so then I did it at this park and then, and then it blew up even bigger. And so it just was like a natural progression of like this kind of stuff because I just provided.
Audrey Christensen (32:42.599)
a space for the community to come. And so that's kind of like how it started and kind of where we're at. And the process of like me choosing and curating and figuring out how to do that, that was a learning process for me. But what I learned and what was very important for me is that like as a vendor.
Like I was like, I know that there was a lot of markets and different things in my area that they would just be like, okay, vendors, me give you, take my vendor fee. See you later. Never see ya. Bye. Good luck to you. See you. Have a good time. Right. And it always felt, especially as, as an artist in the space, it always felt like I did, I didn't belong. Even if I was there, like thanks for giving me the space, but you didn't, you really didn't do anything for me. Like I had to do a lot of that stuff and figure out a lot of that stuff for myself. And then it's still,
Nick (33:15.172)
You
Audrey Christensen (33:32.802)
Sometimes I wasn't successful and you still weren't seeing me and I had to drag all my stuff in it was just and so I had lots of moments where I've had horrible experiences as a vendor at art markets where I felt like I was just a dollar assigned to them.
And sometimes people utilize vendors as for like different things and it was just not what I wanted. And so like when I was making this and I was very intentional about it, I was like, okay, well how can I create this space that is not only good for the community, right? Providing them entertainment and excitement and a place to do and a place and things to do. But like, what could I really do to make sure that the vendor, the artists themselves feel more supported than they've ever felt?
supported in their life. What would I want? What do I wish that I would have had when I was a vendor? Right? And so like I made sure that I had volunteers that would actually take their items from their car to their booth spot so that they could go park. Right? I did like a parking shuttle.
So like because you know how you have to park far away and then you have to like walk You know what mean? And so I I had my mother -in -law be a shuttle and she just picked up all the vendors and would take them to their spots and so I I did certain things like that and then the other thing that I did was like I it was at the time when we just there wasn't a whole lot of Activity on Facebook groups and different things like that, but I didn't want people to be on social media I wanted them to be separate from that I wanted them to have their own space and so I found I Created like these group chats with people and so then it was like the venue
Nick (34:37.186)
Yeah.
Audrey Christensen (35:04.254)
like weeks and months prior to us having this big event, we had this opportunity to connect with each other. And so we spent time talking to each other and I put like established artists next to newbies that never have done markets before. And so they were booth mates. And then I was like, hey, your booth Betty's now, now you're gonna talk to each other and you're gonna before and like make sure that you're sharing each other's work and asking each other questions and doing all of this kind of stuff. so, which we love as established artists, like we're like, my gosh, you're so cute. Like, what are you doing? Right?
these new vendors felt, these new artists felt like they were a part of this community and they didn't have to fight for all of the stuff, all of the knowledge that we gained over time because we were just giving it to each other willingly. And you just saw these things happening where it was just where we would just continue to lift each other up and to do all of these types of things because I provided space for that. And I took in all of the grunt work of that. And I was like, okay, how do I do this and how do I do that? And pre -yardie parties is what I call it, like pre -yardie parties.
Nick (35:34.382)
You
Audrey Christensen (36:04.06)
huge potluck before the event happens and we do it in the space that we're at so that everybody knows what the space looks like and we bring food together and we gather and we chat and we laugh and we have fun. And so when the event happens, the magic in the air and the experience that we have is so overwhelming and so positive and so uplifting that it doesn't matter if we had like one of the markets, it was completely like a rainstorm and we were like puddles. It didn't matter. It didn't matter because people came anyway and the guests could feel that.
And it created this community of people where we just continue to support and lift each other up because it wasn't about how much money we make and it wasn't about like, do I make money enough or who's gonna do that? It was just more about like, can we provide space for people to express themselves and will people respond to us by expressing ourselves? So that's kind of how it turned out.
Nick (36:55.919)
So some follow -up questions. First off, it rains in Utah? The other question is, so I guess it's not really question, but related to that is there's always some markets where I make no money, and then there's some markets where I make no money, but I still have a great time. So I appreciate that you're making that goal, that there's gonna be a great time.
Audrey Christensen (37:03.798)
Where else? It does.
Nick (37:23.981)
whether money gets made or not, hopefully money gets made, but all those little things you put outside of it makes it totally worth it. And also, I always look fondly on that first post -COVID market I did, when everyone's like, wait, we can go out and spend money? I'm gonna buy all your shit. everyone, me and all the other vendors were looking at each other like, what the fuck is going on? Why is everyone buying everything? It was fun.
Audrey Christensen (37:38.56)
Yeah.
Audrey Christensen (37:43.04)
Yeah.
Audrey Christensen (37:49.002)
It was crazy. Yeah. Yeah, so much fun. Yeah. Yeah, definitely.
Nick (37:55.373)
So, I was looking at your website, it's beautiful, but I noticed you're not selling online through your website. So, can you tell me your experience with that?
Audrey Christensen (38:02.282)
No. Yeah.
Sure, it's because I literally took a two year break from making art. That's reason why you don't see anything online. I used to have an online shop. I did really well. I was a completely full time artist during that time and I loved it. And currently, life happens and things happen. But it was more that I spent a lot of time being the event coordinator for the art sale, that I didn't spend a lot of time focusing solely on my own.
my own art because sometimes we have to just allow ourselves to go through the ebb and flow of that and and I believe completely in pivoting right and going where we feel we are needed and during that two -year period of time like I
my art wasn't needed for me at that moment. Like that wasn't the most important thing for me. And so I was like very specific. I was like hiking in Joshua Tree in California and I just remember hiking through the little desert there and I was like, okay, well I'm not gonna have my shop anymore. I'm gonna end it tomorrow. I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna stop. Well, I'm gonna tell people that I'm gonna be ending it. I gave it like a week.
Okay, this is all the art that I have you buy what you can but it just wasn't what I wanted at that time and then and it was it was a whole like how remember I talked to you about like when I was a dollmaker and I was like I'm not doing that anymore and And that kind of stuff it was that same experience that I had where it just wasn't it wasn't needed anymore for me at that moment and so I kind of let that go and let that and let that die and let it go back in the earth and See how that goes and and it was wonderful
Audrey Christensen (39:48.474)
It was a wonderful experience to be like, okay, well, this is no longer what is needed for me. But yeah, I could still and I still continue to be quote unquote a full -time artist. I still was successful in my business and doing everything things because I allowed myself to pivot and I did workshops and I did this thing that I call the maker's huddle where it was work like I did. taught small business owners how to become an artist. And so, or the opposite way I taught artists how to become.
small business owners is the best way that I did it. So I spent time teaching them like how do you go online and how do you show up your work and how do you find your brand name and how do you like find your why and what's more important, how do you price things, how do you do that. All of the things that I learned over the years and years and years and years I spent time
teaching them in these workshops and I had like these groups and just the way that I curated the Yart Cell, I curated this group where we had like I had 25 to 30 people every couple of months come in completely new and I taught them how to do that.
And I became essentially like this life coach, business coach for them. And we spent a lot of time doing that and it was really beautiful and it was really wonderful. And it was all because I just allowed myself to let things go. And I didn't hold on tightly onto this idea that I could only be this one thing, that I could only do this thing. This is the only thing that I was known for. And by doing that, I was able to provide so many more opportunities for these different small businesses to become small businesses, these artists to become small businesses.
they had that support and that connection. And I have a variety of people that went through that course with me who is now a full -time, like I have one friend that's like a full -time candle maker and like he was just this little dinky little, I like to make candles as my hobby. And now he's selling and he has shops all over the place where he has his candles in different places and he's become successful because he allowed me to teach him and to be in that presence and I was able to do that. And so for those two years that's
Audrey Christensen (41:51.969)
what I did. And then I was like, you know what? That's not what I need anymore. And it was the same process that I'm like, you where do I want to go? And what's happening with me now?
And I allowed myself to be present in that and now is where I'm coming back to my art. And I'm sharing it more. And I'm actually in the process of putting my art back online. so I'm like working behind the scenes of creating my cute little online shop that I'm gonna be doing. Which is, you know, interesting to like have this like full circle moment of like, okay, well now how do I go back into doing that instead of what I was doing before? Thank you.
Nick (42:30.947)
That's beautiful. Very beautifully said. So, you said you're building out your online store now. Have you noticed,
Nick (42:43.609)
So I only recently discovered you on TikTok.
I guess my question is how long have you been putting yourself and your art out there on TikTok or other social media platforms? And do you find that now is the time for you to try and pivot to the online sales from all this attention you're getting not locally?
Audrey Christensen (42:58.54)
storm.
Audrey Christensen (43:09.308)
Yes. Yes to that.
Nick (43:13.679)
There's a lot of questions in there.
Audrey Christensen (43:16.8)
Lots of questions in there. What I'm gathering from what you're saying is that like, okay, I have a pretty prevalent following on TikTok. I have a pretty prevalent following on a variety of other social medias aspect. And what's interesting to me, it's a collection of people, right? It's a collection of people that have been with me since I was like a mommy blogger. And then I have people that were with me when I was a doll maker and people that were with me with all through these stages of life, right? These collections of people that I have. And so it's very interesting to be
able to pivot in those types of things. And so what I'm noticing now, right, especially when I'm sharing my work online, is that I have people that aren't local, right? And they're like, my gosh, would you ship that to me? Or I'll have people, where's your online shop? And I'm like, I don't have any of that. I've got nothing. I'm ready or prepared because I'm, there's the best way that I, because I've gone viral a few times on TikTok and
People always think that they want to have that ability or want to have that experience and want to have all of that kind of stuff. And it's great when you're prepared for that. It is not great when you're not prepared for that. And so you find yourself or I've learned in the past that there was past experiences where when I have had those opportunities of being viral and trying to keep up with the maintaining of these like, the attention span of what people are doing now and fighting against that. was definitely interesting to see the anxiety of who I used to be like a long
time ago what I would be like, my gosh I have to hurry and shove everything on there, make listings, hurry and get everything shipped out. I'm never gonna have this moment again. This is my one time of fame and no one's ever gonna see me again. I had a lot of those experiences when I was first doing a lot of different things and now as this like wise old person that's like I took a two -year break and now I'm coming back. There's a difference between how I do those types of things and so yes
I have noticed that there is a need for people to have a place for them to purchase things from me online because that's the only way that they're going to be able to experience me, right, and to be able to ship those types of things.
Audrey Christensen (45:21.558)
But there also is in that same breath that I say that to you, I don't want to do it at the level of the anxiety that induced version of that. And that we can take our time to be patient and take our time to build it out the way that is going to be best for us and how we want to do those types of things. And that's an unlimited amount of ability for us to be able to do that. Because if somebody liked your thing then...
and they like it far away and far away from you, they're gonna like it again. And those are gonna come in and achieve that. But at least you'll be able to set yourself up with a good foundation and a good base to be able to handle those types of things. And so that's the difference between who I am now, like starting my online shop again now, compared to who I was back then when I was like, people really resonated with me when I transitioned and they wanted things from me very quickly. And so I think, I hope that I answered your question.
Nick (45:55.247)
Hmm.
Nick (46:14.847)
No, yeah, you did. That was very beautiful. So with that new store you're building in mind, what e -commerce platform are you going to be using?
Audrey Christensen (46:16.146)
Good.
Audrey Christensen (46:25.26)
I'm using Squarespace because I'm an old bitch. that's the whole thing. I'm comfortable with that. There's Shopify that I've used and stuff, different things and stuff like that before.
Nick (46:27.81)
You
Audrey Christensen (46:37.546)
I think those are honestly the only two that I've ever done. I like Squarespace because it's very comfortable for me. It was very easy for me and I didn't want to be complicated. I didn't want to learn new things and I didn't want to do any of that kind of stuff. And so I'm just building that out like how I used to have it or what I'm used to on there. And it was very successful for me then and I hope that it will be continuing in that way. But I have a lot of friends that use the other platform or use other different versions of different things. And I think that the most important thing is
and especially when we are trying to move forward with whatever we're doing to become successful as full -time artists is that we have to do what's going to be best for us personally and be able to trust ourselves in that ability of that. Like do I want to be on this social media platform? Do I shine on that? Do I want to use this ecommerce platform because it's easy for me to navigate or do I have to go watch a thousand different YouTube videos to figure out how to even put one thing on there and it's not gonna cause them... right? And so like if we break all of that and pull it all apart
like what are we trying to achieve?
and how are we going to be successful in that? And do we have people that can support us in that, that already are utilizing those platforms, utilizing those types of things that we can go out and gain knowledge from them? Do we have the space and the capacity and the nervous system to be able to learn something completely new? Or how else could I provide that opportunity for people to purchase things from me that doesn't necessarily mean that I have to have this really nice, expensive shop that's on there too. And so I think that's very important that we
do things based on the level of experience or the level of our nervous system so that we can actually become successful and move into that gear of where we want.
Nick (48:21.423)
Again, beautifully put. So I use Shopify and for my needs it's been wonderful because I can do things such as connect my BacchorKit pledge manager, which is a post Kickstarter project organizational tool to my site. So when people do the checkout, the orders automatically go to my site and then I can print out my labels from there.
Audrey Christensen (48:23.468)
Thank you.
Audrey Christensen (48:48.3)
Love it. Yeah.
Nick (48:48.871)
and then have that automatically connect to like the SKUs that I have and then have that automatically connect to the warehouse that's warehousing stuff for me. Yeah. Yeah. So like that's why Shopify has worked for me. Now that being said, when I first started with Shopify, I put way too much on there. Just like I was talking about when I had too much going on in my booth, I had every product I ever had available for sale.
Audrey Christensen (48:55.442)
You got one of those analytical brains, you see? That's what I told you.
Audrey Christensen (49:02.689)
Yeah.
Audrey Christensen (49:14.442)
Yeah. Yeah.
Nick (49:16.143)
As a listing on my site, I added graphics on each photo so it wouldn't just be a photo. And then when all was said and done, I was like, looking at my website, I'm like, I would never wanna browse this site. There's way too much. And I was comparing it to like successful artist sites and a lot of them are very simple to the point. Probably no more than 20 products at a time. So after a while, I then deleted a ton of shit, just put my things that sold a lot.
Audrey Christensen (49:43.756)
definitely.
Nick (49:45.687)
And frankly, I threw away a lot of the stuff that... And that's also really freeing too, throwing away things that A, don't sell, and B, represent you at a time when you weren't as good. And it's fun to... I feel like there's kind of a stigma with artists where everyone is great, you know? Like you're supposed to say, everyone's a wonderful artist.
But that can't be true if you're looking back at yourself from 10 years ago and you're like, I was not good. So I don't know what I'm saying. That's like a whole other can of, I guess, that I'm thinking of. But it was, thank you, thank you. So.
Audrey Christensen (50:22.764)
We would have done that round for you. I feel like that was very freeing for you. I feel like that was a very good moment. I love that for you. No, but I agree with you. Yeah, that's so great.
Nick (50:34.927)
I also saw on your website you have a sub stack. I have zero experience with that. How do you use that?
Audrey Christensen (50:38.398)
Yay!
my gosh, I love it so much. I'm a writer, I'm a poet. so...
And I'm also like an oversharer, right? And there's not enough characters in an Instagram post or even on, nobody reads the captions on TikTok, right? Come on. And I couldn't make people watch me for 20 minutes. Maybe one day I'll do a YouTube, I don't know. But, and so like, I love words. And so I use Substack as another form of art that I do. And I'm very, I use it essentially like a blog. And so I have that there and I just recently created it where I just began, I began, I...
maybe the beginning of this year, I'm there where it's another source of income for me, where those that are really, here, this is how I believe, when you have people that are following you or choosing to be a part of your world, there are gonna be a variety of ways that people are going to do that with you, right? They're gonna be there just for your art, cool, awesome, let me buy that, that's great, I'm gonna give it to my nana, that sounds like a great time, right? There's gonna be people that are having a parasocial relationships with you, like they think that we are best friends, right?
And they have that connection with you. And then there's people that are just different things, right?
Audrey Christensen (51:56.168)
It's just the same thing as like we talk about having avenues for people to be able to connect with you in a variety of ways, right? Having an online shop for people to purchase things, finding ways for people to connect with you in person and with markets, doing workshops, doing different things. This is just another avenue for the people that want to dive a little bit deeper into who I am and what I am as a creator and using words that resonate with them. so...
Yes, it was one way for them to be connected to me, but it was also another way that I was like, well, how could I have another source of income that on the times that I can't necessarily show up or me make art or don't do those things, but I could do it this way. I could just sit down for 20 minutes, 30 minutes to write a little thing. And then people resonated with that. And so I used that as that way. And then I also started utilizing Substack as a like, where.
pattern club and they the people that join my sub stack for like five dollars a month they'll get patterns for me and then I walk them through the process of how to I embroider and I walk them through the process of how I watercolor and I give them that that opportunity of more more connected space with me that way and then though they can start stitching alongside me and so there's a variety of ways that you could utilize that in there and so it's just kind of another what's that other platform that they have where you could
Nick (53:14.649)
Patreon?
Audrey Christensen (53:15.786)
Patreon and I used to I did patreon for a while too. So it's essentially a fancier version to patreon but more more so for words and writing and different things but Substacks have been doing now. There's podcasts on substack. There's video formats on substack They have like a behind -the -scene group chats that only you can be there DMS that are on there. It's a whole different social media platform essentially at this point and you have a whole other community that you get to
really curate and have experiences with that is behind a paywall and it's really fun and it's really interesting to be able to do that.
Nick (53:54.283)
Interesting, because I know a lot of artists have been using, at least in the circles I'm in, have been using Discord to communicate with their people. But it seems like you can't really monetize Discord. But Substack, it seems like like Patreon, you are in a safe space and you are sending your message out to your followers and you can choose how and when they interact with it.
Audrey Christensen (54:03.52)
Yeah. Yeah.
Audrey Christensen (54:22.24)
Yeah, yeah, -huh, and it's broken down to like, can have people that purchase it and they get a different version of things. You can have free people that join it that have a certain amount of things that you can see too. And there's like, you can create a variety of websites within the website. And so the people that don't want to get my embroidery stuff, like they don't get that.
Nick (54:23.854)
Yeah.
Audrey Christensen (54:42.76)
they'll still pay for other things. And so I have like, it's basically in my mind how I envision it. It's just like tabs opened of all of these different like places that I could do, but it's all under one little umbrella. And so you have so much ability to create just like just continuously on top of each other, top of like layers to whatever it is that you build there.
Nick (55:03.833)
Do you ever feel an obligation to share when you're not in the mood to share? Okay.
Audrey Christensen (55:10.58)
No, fuck that. yes, but here, but I'm a wise version of myself now. Remember, we're learning. We're a full circle of that. Yes, there's, I think.
Nick (55:16.527)
Yes, yes.
Audrey Christensen (55:22.859)
Because there's some times that I do worry about that, right? Like the last time I think I posted on my sub stack was probably about two months ago, truthfully, to be honest. Just because I'm not in the space to write or wanted to do that, that's not just something that I'm attracted to or wanting to do right now. And so sometimes I worry about that. Like, my gosh, these people signed up and they're paying this thing and they're expecting all of this stuff. But they also, at the same time, they're not, right? And so it's just a matter of allowing ourselves to be like, okay, well, communicating with our following, making sure that they understand what it is
that I'm trying to achieve and what I'm doing. people have a choice to not follow me and not pay for my services anymore and they can move on with their lives and that's okay too. And I think that if we go in the ebb and flow with whatever we're doing, especially with what art or medium that we're utilizing, we're gonna...
following to do that same thing with us and so there's gonna be some times that I will have be very active on there and I will gain a lot more followers on my sub stack and I'll gain more money in that sense and then there's time that it's not gonna be that way and that's all okay and I think that we especially in this day and age that we feel like we have to be present and show up consistently and we have to do all of these things like my to be for us to be considered successful and we're right because we're so consumed with like just instantly
being able to be a part of someone's life and instantly be able to get whatever it is that we're trying to do, we feel like we have to live up to that standard. And I followed that train. Like I was die hard, let's go. I posted every day. I did all those types of things, right? And then I realized that that's not conducive for what I want to do. That's not the life that I want to achieve. And that's not the thing that I want to be. And like, what is my level of success compared to what it is that I'm required to do? And who makes
the rules of that. Like I gotta make the rules about whatever I want to do. I can create whatever I want. I can write whatever I want. I can post whenever I want. I can do whatever I want. And because I am control. Like that's the reason why I started my business, right? That's the reason why I didn't want to go work for somebody else's because I wanted to be in control of what it is, what my day to day life is. And then if I'm allowing the following that I have dictate that, then that I'm no longer working for myself and I'm working for them. And that doesn't make sense to me. And so
Audrey Christensen (57:41.803)
So I change my perspective from that and I'm just allowing myself to just be present in like wherever I choose to spend time is what gets to be grown at that time. And that doesn't mean that the other thing isn't getting watered. It just means that it's not in season.
Right? And that's not the time for us to be able to worry about that. And so go where it's important. And when you do that, everything else and all of them, wherever they are, will come and be part of that because they want to be where you are in the way that you're expressing yourself because they want to be a part of that. You know?
Nick (58:16.183)
I love that. It's not because you're not watering it, it's because it's not in season. Beautiful. Audrey, this has been a wonderful conversation. Thank you so much for taking some time to chat with me. I feel like I've learned a lot holistically about where I need to think about I'm headed. And for anyone who wants to see your incredible embroidery pieces or anything else you do or join some of your classes or just fuck with your shit.
Audrey Christensen (58:20.73)
Thank you.
Audrey Christensen (58:25.088)
Welcome.
Audrey Christensen (58:29.541)
Love that.
Audrey Christensen (58:42.571)
Yeah!
Nick (58:43.577)
They're gonna find you at HeyBFab .com. That's H -E -Y -B -E -F -A -B, HeyBFab. And you also got HeyBFab on TikTok, Facebook, Instagram. Yeah. All right, well thank you so much, Audrey. I really appreciate your time and hope you have a wonderful day.
Audrey Christensen (58:54.582)
I make it easy for you. Yeah, thank you. Bye bye
Outro
Chain Assembly: Art for profit sake is recorded through Riverside FM, distributed through Spotify for podcasters, and edited on Adobe Audition. The music is provided by Old Romans. If you learned anything useful or found this podcast helpful, please rate and review us five stars. If you want to learn more about me or my art, head over to ChainAssembly.com.
